Interview with David Speers, ABC Insiders Program

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
ABC INSIDERS PROGRAM WITH DAVID SPEERS
SUNDAY, 2 JUNE 2024

SUBJECTS: Immigration, restoring agricultural trade with China, live sheep exports, company tax cuts

HOST, DAVID SPEERS: Murray Watt, welcome to the program.

MINISTER MURRAY WATT: G'day, David, good to be with you.

DAVID SPEERS: So in hindsight, should the Government have ignored that pressure from New Zealand?

MURRAY WATT: Well, it's obviously a matter of public record that these issues were raised by the former New Zealand Prime Minister, but what we've always said is that we will act in Australia's national interests, and that's what we have always attempted to do. As has been well canvassed over the course of this week, it was never our intention that the changes that were made to that Ministerial Direction would have the outcome that they did. Even the advice that Andrew Giles was provided by his Department when making that direction indicated that there would be no impact on people where we were talking about serious offences having been committed. Of course, that's not the way the AAT has interpreted it. They interpreted it in a way that was never intended by the Government, and that's exactly why we're now taking action to fix it.

DAVID SPEERS: So are you saying Direction 99 was in the national interest? What did it aim to do?

MURRAY WATT: Well, obviously what it aimed to do was to recognise the difficult situation where some people involved have been in Australia for a long time, in some cases since they were a toddler or a baby, but that doesn't mean that we intended for community safety to be relegated below that as a priority. It was always our intention that community safety would be a primary consideration.

DAVID SPEERS: But alongside those ties to Australia, so it did elevate that issue.

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, it did, but what we're doing now is making it absolutely crystal clear for the AAT and departmental officials interpreting it, that community safety is to be the number one priority, more than anything else.

DAVID SPEERS: More than so community safety will be a higher priority than ties to Australia? 

MURRAY WATT: Absolutely, and as I say, the intention was never that it would be relegated below any other factor. But what we're now doing, in light of the fact that these decisions have been made, is to make that clear, and as you pointed out -

DAVID SPEERS: So was it a mistake then, Direction 99?

MURRAY WATT: I don't think it was, because as I say, the way it's been interpreted was very different to how the Government intended, and what we learned through the week in Senate Estimates, and you've just played in the introduction, is that Minister Giles wasn't even made aware by his Department when the AAT was making decisions that went against the spirit and the intent of that direction.

DAVID SPEERS: And that's a whole other problem. But just to be clear on this, the Government elevates ties to Australia as a top priority; now you're going to move it down below community safety. But you still don't think that was a mistake? 

MURRAY WATT: What would have been a mistake is if the Government had said that we want to put duration of stay above community safety, and we didn't do that.

DAVID SPEERS: But was it a mistake to put it alongside?

MURRAY WATT: No, I don't think so. I think unfortunately the mistake has been that the AAT has interpreted that direction in a way that the Government never intended. But unfortunately, this is not an issue that has just arisen on Minister Giles' watch. I mean I think it's good that at last we've seen a bit of scrutiny of Peter Dutton's record as the Home Affairs Minister. We saw this week that over 1,300 criminals were released on his watch when he was the Home Affairs Minister. So you've got Peter Dutton out there saying that Andrew Giles should be sacked, when actually Andrew Giles is cancelling visas, but at the same time Peter Dutton says that he should be made Prime Minister when he released 1,300 offenders, including over 100 sex offenders into the community.

DAVID SPEERS: Yep, and it's fair enough to point to his record, but he never elevated ties to Australia to the same level as community safety.

MURRAY WATT: No, but let's have a look at what actually happened when Peter Dutton was the Minister. As I say, he was the Minister when 1,300 convicted criminals were released into the community with not one electronic bracelet, with not one curfew. We've actually found out today   

DAVID SPEERS: No, I understand, I understand that, but   

MURRAY WATT: Well, can I just add to that, David   

DAVID SPEERS: Yep.

MURRAY WATT: We've actually found out today that when it came to visa cancellations being overturned by the Department, under Peter Dutton's reign, 40 per cent of the decisions were overturned by his Department. We've nearly halved that. So we've deported more criminals in our first year in office than the Government ever did under Peter Dutton's reign, the Department at the time Peter Dutton was the Minister was overturning visa cancellations at double the rate the Government, our Government has done, and of course we've put in place further protections that were never employed by Peter Dutton when he was the Minister.

DAVID SPEERS: Sorry, I think you just said you've deported more criminals than he ever did. Is that correct?

MURRAY WATT: Absolutely, it's absolutely correct. What the Government has done in our first year of office is deport   

DAVID SPEERS: In your first year?

MURRAY WATT: In our first year of office deport more criminals than happened

DAVID SPEERS: Okay. Not in total.

MURRAY WATT: In the previous year under the former government.

DAVID SPEERS: Sorry, I just wanted to clear that up. Not in total though. Now when you   this new direction that you're talking about that will make community safety number one, ties to Australia number two, what does that mean for someone who came here as a toddler, as you say; I mean there's this terrible example of 74 year old Charles William Davidson, came here when he was five from Scotland, I mean that was back when Winston Churchill was still Prime Minister. So he spent a long time in Australia, obviously done some terrible things, been convicted of horrendous offences, sexually assaulting 26 women and girls, and so on. Is he Australia's problem?

MURRAY WATT: I don't think he should be Australia's problem, and that is made clear by the fact that this whole case, along with all of the other cases, arose in the context where the Government decided to cancel people's visas, including that person's visa. Presumably they appealed it to a department for re consideration, that was knocked back, they then appealed it to the AAT where the Government opposed their application, and the AAT nevertheless decided to revoke that cancellation. So the point is that at every step of the way the Government has indicated that people like that do not belong in Australia, we've tried to cancel their visas   

DAVID SPEERS: So even if you come here as a five year old and spend 70 years here, you're out? 

MURRAY WATT: Well, I think that the Australian community expects that community safety will be the number one priority, and that's exactly what's been made clear through this change to the direction.

DAVID SPEERS: Can you clear up another thing for us. The Immigration Minister said the other day on Sky News that drones are being used to monitor some of those released from immigration detention after the High Court ruling. It does seem a little bit fanciful that there are drones buzzing over our heads keeping an eye on some people. Is that really happening?

MURRAY WATT: Well, my understanding is that drones are being used as part of this operation, but more in the sense of monitoring the accommodation that people are living in, in for example ensuring that it's not too close to schools or other areas that they're not supposed to be living close to. So drones do form part of the operation that's involved in monitoring these offenders, but it's more being done in an operational sense like that.

DAVID SPEERS: You could use Google Maps to find out whether someone's house is too close to a school. Are drones seriously being used for this?

MURRAY WATT: That's my understanding, David, is to monitor the location and the accommodation of these offenders.

DAVID SPEERS: Right.

MURRAY WATT: While also

DAVID SPEERS: But are they watching the offenders as well as they wander around the streets?

MURRAY WATT: Well, my understanding is it's more about mapping the location in the sense of the accommodation of the offender, and particularly in relation to areas that they legislatively can't be near.

DAVID SPEERS: Alright. You're right across these Immigration and Home Affairs issues, Murray Watt, which prompts the question, are you interested at all in taking on either role?

MURRAY WATT: I'm actually really enjoying my current role, David, I'm obviously very privileged to serve in the Cabinet and really enjoying the role of Agriculture, Fisheries, Forestry and Emergency Management. But more than that, I actually really support my colleagues in what they've been doing. I mean Clare

DAVID SPEERS: So how would you rate the performance of Andrew Giles?

MURRAY WATT: I think that Andrew Giles and Clare O'Neil have both performed incredibly strongly in a really difficult portfolio area. We need to remember the mess that they inherited when we came to office. I mean basically they inherited a massive battleship that was off course and that had been torpedoed full of holes. They've had to patch that up over the time that they've been ministers.

DAVID SPEERS: We've also seen a lot of political difficulties that I'm sure you would acknowledge. If the PM were to say to you, "I need you, as one of our stronger performers, to go into one of these roles" would you do it?

MURRAY WATT: Look, I'm not even thinking about that, David. As I say, I enjoy the role that I've got at the moment, and I really back in my colleagues. I think they've had a very difficult role fixing up the mess that Peter Dutton left. I mean, remember the Migration Review that was led by Martin Parkinson, the former head of Prime Minister and Cabinet under Malcolm Turnbull said wilful neglect

DAVID SPEERS: I understand your point on that.

MURRAY WATT: Over 10 years.

DAVID SPEERS: Okay, no, we've heard that point. I've also heard you might be interested in the Attorney General's job at some point down the track.

MURRAY WATT: Oh, look, you can throw any portfolio out, but   

DAVID SPEERS: Alright. I've got to try.

MURRAY WATT: My answer's going to be the same.

DAVID SPEERS: Let's talk about your portfolio then, Minister. China has lifted sanctions on about five beef exporters. Most of the trade bans that were imposed a few years ago have now been removed, I think lobster's the only one left. What is your advice to beef, wine, other exporters now about getting back into the Chinese market? Should they really have diversified more? Is there still a risk in chasing that lucrative market in China?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I think it is terrific news that again this week we saw the lifting of further trade suspensions by China, David, and I think this demonstrates that the work that our Government has put in to stabilise the relationship with China is paying real dividends for our farmers, our processors, the whole Australian community. Individual companies will make their own decisions about what they do, but I think that people have learned the lesson of putting too many eggs in one basket, whether it be China or any other market. I mean I can very much understand why producers would be wanting to get back into the China market. It is our biggest agricultural trading partner, and even in the few months that we've seen some of those barriers lifted, that has generated about $3 billion more exports for our agriculture sector than what we had before, so things like barley, wine, cotton, hay, timber logs, and now beef establishments as well. So it is a very high value market, but what we've also been trying to do over the last couple of years is diversify markets. We've actually opened dozens of new markets around the world, whether it be stone fruit going into Vietnam, wine into India, barley into the Middle East and to other markets as well. So I think diverse markets is the future, but I can understand why people are keen to get back into China.

DAVID SPEERS: Sure. But your advice as Minister is for exporters to diversify.

MURRAY WATT: Oh, I wouldn't go that far, David. I wouldn't take it upon myself to advise individual companies about what's in their commercial interests, but I think that people should be thinking about the degree to which they're exposed to any one market. You know, over the last few years we've seen all sorts of supply chain interruptions.

DAVID SPEERS: For China in particular, and China's the one that we've seen can turn off the tap, it can really wreck, it can really punish an industry they have to be aware of that, don't they?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, they obviously need to be aware of that, but again, I think many companies are already getting back into China, and as I say, those figures demonstrate the value of doing so. But I think a lot of companies will be also thinking about making sure they've got other options available too.

DAVID SPEERS: Alright. Live sheep: a big protest held in Perth just on Friday, more are planned, this is over your plans to   or your announced decision to ban live sheep exports in four years' time. Look, the industry says the problems that were there were about seven years ago, they've cleaned everything up since then. Have they?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I don't think that they have done enough to meet community standards, and I think the community's been very clear about this industry. I mean we need to understand that live sheep exports by sea has been an industry in decline for about 20 years under both sides of politics. It's now worth less than one per cent of Western Australia's agricultural production, and at the same time we've seen exports of sheep meat that's processed here in Australia just go through the roof with more demand every single day. So really what we're trying to do through this decision is to stop jobs being sent offshore and actually create jobs onshore through more onshore processing, and that's what the funding will go to.

DAVID SPEERS: Sure. But they dispute that the industry's, you know, in decline, as you say; they say it still has   it should have a future. What are the issues, the problems that are still there?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I think if you look at the mortality figures, they are still significantly higher than live cattle exports, which is one of the reasons the Government doesn't support banning live cattle exports.

DAVID SPEERS: But the industry says they're not, they're the same as live cattle.

MURRAY WATT: No, the figures are still higher for sheep, but as I say, you know, this is an industry that lost community support a long time ago. Even surveys that have been conducted in Western Australia, the only State that's doing this now, show that about 70 per cent of Western Australians support this trade being ended, and they support the idea of moving towards more onshore processing, which is more jobs and more exports for Australia.

DAVID SPEERS: Your support package has been described by the West Australian Labor Premier, Roger Cook, as "Not good enough". Will you offer any more?

MURRAY WATT: Oh, look, I would understand why the Western Australian Premier has been saying this, but we think that has a really substantial package. As I say, this is an industry that's been in decline a long time, it's never been given a cent by any government to transition. We're now offering over $100 million in taxpayer funding to help this industry rebuild itself towards more onshore processing.

DAVID SPEERS: And that's it?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, I mean that's the offer that's there, and we think that that will go a long way, and as I say, I think that that's why we don't need to despair about the sheep industry in general. It will have a different future, but it will have a strong future.

DAVID SPEERS: Finally, Murray Watt, do you think a company tax cut should be considered?

MURRAY WATT: No, that's not on the Government's agenda, David.  Obviously we've got a full range of different tax measures in place at the moment, most importantly the tax cuts that will come in for every single Australian taxpayer on 1 July.

DAVID SPEERS: So what's Ed Husic talking about, your Cabinet colleague, when he says it should be considered?

MURRAY WATT: Obviously Ed's made those remarks, but the Government's policy is that we've got a big range of tax measures on the place. Our focus is on multinational tax avoidance, we've made the changes to the PRRT, and of course we've put forward the tax credits under our Future Made in Australia.

DAVID SPEERS: So definitely no consideration of a company tax cut?

MURRAY WATT: No, certainly nothing that I have been involved in and the tax credits that are going towards the Future Made in Australia is the primary vehicle for this, and of course they're being opposed by Peter Dutton and the Opposition.

DAVID SPEERS: Alright. Murray Watt, Minister for Agriculture and Emergency Management, and happy in that role, as he's told us.

MURRAY WATT: Absolutely.

DAVID SPEERS: Thank you for joining us this morning.