Doorstop in Hobart, Tasmania
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
DOORSTOP
HOBART
FRIDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 2024
SUBJECTS: The Albanese Labor Government’s reforms to improve small business payment times; Tasmanian Budget; APVMA; trade.
JULIE COLLINS, MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FORESTRY: This is the Federal Government delivering on our commitment to help ensure small businesses get paid on time. This is about making sure that big businesses pay small businesses on time. We got the legislation through the Parliament. What today is about is about saying the rules are now in place, and we have a dashboard now online for small businesses, so that they can access this data better. Big businesses can also go on and see how they compare to other big businesses. This is about making sure that we make it easier for small businesses to do business, and it comes on top of the more than $640 million in targeted support for small businesses that we had in our Small Business Budget Statement in the last Federal Budget.
We want to make sure that small businesses are not carrying the cash flow issues for big businesses. This is about supporting small businesses so that they have the cash flow that they need. We know that some small businesses are doing it tough, other small businesses are thriving, but when small businesses go into business with big businesses, big businesses need to pay them on time.
JOURNALIST: You said the rules are now in place. Were they not in place before and, if so, why not?
COLLINS: Well, what we did was we reformed this - it was an election commitment that we would. We've made it easier for big business to report, and we've made it easier for small businesses to understand what is going on with our dashboard.
JOURNALIST: Can you give us more context about what the reform actually is - what it will look like and, I guess, how easy it is for small businesses to be able to access?
COLLINS: So, this is about big businesses - businesses with more than $100 million in turnover, there's about 5,000 of those in the country - about them reporting about their payment times. It's about making sure that small businesses get paid in 30 days or less, and we're saying 30 days is a good time. We know that around 69 per cent of big businesses currently pay on time, but we also know that there are big businesses who are not paying small businesses on time, and this gives us the ability to be able to designate some businesses, big businesses, as slow payers so small businesses know the relationship they're getting into before they sign their contracts.
JOURNALIST: And what are the consequences for big businesses if they don't pay in the 30 days?
COLLINS: Well, obviously, they're up there on the dashboard for everybody to see. We think that this will change behaviour. We also, for big businesses that continually don't pay on time, have an ability to name them as a slow payer, and they will have to put slow payer on their invoices and on their material and on their website. We think that having this dashboard where people can see how businesses are performing, they will improve their payment times to small business.
JOURNALIST: Because it's happened since July in terms of the reforms, have you seen businesses being named and shamed, and small businesses have you seen I guess a change since it's actually been implemented?
COLLINS: Well, we've now got the dashboard up and running, and we think we'll see changes from there. Certainly, the average paying time according to the latest available data is 35 days. We want to see that get under 30 days, and as I've said, around 69 per cent of big businesses currently pay small businesses on time. We want to see that increase substantially.
JOURNALIST: We know small businesses often just go with the big guys because it seems like the safe option. Do you think just saying slow payer, or however you phrased it, is it actually enough to deter them?
COLLINS: Well, what it means, of course, this is before they sign their contracts with the big businesses, they can go and they can have a look, and they can have the discussions with those businesses as part of their contract discussions. We've also, of course, since coming to Government, we've made unfair contract terms illegal, we're improving competition, so we are reforming it to make it easier for small businesses to be able to compete.
JOURNALIST: And will there be, I guess, any review of the dashboard or the reforms? What does that sort of look like as well?
COLLINS: We certainly continually review what we're doing. There is always a review of these types of reforms. We have made these reforms - it's taken a little while to get through the Parliament. I want to see these reforms implemented, and what I want to see is big businesses pay small businesses on time.
JOURNALIST: Would you like to make a few general statements first?
ROBERT MALLETT, TASMANIAN SMALL BUSINESS COUNCIL: Every business needs to, first of all, sell something. If you haven't sold it, you don't have a business, but you similarly don't have a business unless you get paid for it. So whilst it might, in some ways, seem like the second most important thing, it's very important. Small businesses can often approach a big business with their products, goods, services et cetera, with starry eyes. It's the jackpot, this is the way they're going to pay for their superannuation in the future. But so often, and too often, it ends up that big business spends an inordinate amount of time to pay, and that small businesses can get into serious trouble. That's not on, and I think this reform by the Federal Government now - that puts it out there in the public view that anybody at any time can go and have a look at any one of the 5,000 big businesses in this country and their payment records over a period of time - is fantastic. There's no room to hide now for big businesses who do not pay on time.
JOURNALIST: In your experience, or is this something that you've had small businesses come to you and say is a key concern for them?
MALLETT: A bit hard, don't want to dob anybody in, but there are plenty of small, for example - there are plenty of small farmers for people who grow fruit and produce, et cetera. In Tasmania we only have two supermarkets, for example, which have 97 per cent of the marketplace. Interesting enough, one of those supermarkets, I noticed by looking on the dashboard today, pay in less than 30 days. That's fantastic and that should give small growers, small farmers within Tasmania, confidence in dealing with one of the big 50 per cent suppliers of groceries to Tasmanians. So it's that sort of confidence that a small business needs to have when they're thinking about setting up their business. Getting into business is a big emotion. It's very emotional, we love our businesses, but at the same time when it goes bad it can be very sour, and so as much information as we could possibly have to get it right makes it a lot easier that our business is going to be more successful.
JOURNALIST: Is it a concern that you hear amongst the community in terms of payment times and that sort of thing, is this something that you've heard over the years that keeps coming up?
MALLETT: Payment times have been an issue for small businesses for decades. My national body, we are constantly talking about how often it takes for small businesses to get paid, and the relative downside of long payment terms - plus 90 days. And you'll see on the dashboard there are big businesses in Australia who take in excess of 90 days to pay their bills. That is just immoral.
JOURNALIST: Does it have a bit of an impact on the, maybe, the economy if businesses aren't getting paid on time? They can't reinvest their funds and that sort of thing - is that part of it?
MALLETT: Well, if a small business doesn't get paid on time, it has a long downstream effect, because do their staff get paid? Are their staff's superannuation getting paid? Is insurance being paid? Is that small business's suppliers getting paid? That has a long downstream effect which can be very, very costly to the entire community.
JOURNALIST: Would you like to see tougher consequences for these big businesses? Obviously, you know, money isn't normally a problem for them, rather than just a label saying they're slow?
MALLETT: This initiative now puts it front and centre - anybody can access it. It's great to see. Let's see how this pans out, let's see how that changes the attitude of some of the bigger businesses in the country and their willingness to start to comply with their own payment terms. You look on the dashboard, their payment terms will be 30 days and yet, they're paying in excess of 60 or 90. That's not good enough. So I think, let's see how we go. It's a great initiative to start with, and I'm sure there's plenty of room to tinker by the Government in later times. This is Darren Wray. Darren is one of the principals here at MWJ.
COLLINS: Yes, who are hosting us today. Thank you.
JOURNALIST: So what would be the best area for you to talk to, just as a small business?
DARREN WRAY, DIRECTOR OF MWJ ACCOUNTANTS: Well, we do accounting for small business. Our customers are small businesses, medium size business as well. So we see the numbers come through on a regular basis and we see the challenges that small businesses have weekly, daily, monthly, yearly.
JOURNALIST: Lovely. Then we’ll talk to that a bit then.
WRAY: Okay, thank you. My name is Darren Wray, I'm a Director of MWJ Accountants.
JOURNALIST: Fantastic. So yeah, a reform like this, is this something that you think clients have been calling for and would like to see?
WRAY: I think they'd love to see it. This will be a great tool for small business. Small businesses are reasonably strapped, they're working in their own businesses so they struggle with the day to day running of business, let alone credit management. This tool will be a tool that they can use to assess whether or not they provide credit to their customers. It's just a great tool. I think once it's out there and known in the marketplace, it will get used.
JOURNALIST: There's a lot of challenges for small businesses at the moment. Have you seen, I guess, less around, or you know, I guess there's more deterrence for them to just not do it?
WRAY: Yes. I think confidence is a thing when it comes to small business, especially somebody starting a small business. You need confidence in the marketplace, confidence in getting paid, as well. That's a big part of what you do. Like, a sale's not a sale until the money's in the bank sort of situation. So, yes, we are seeing some tightening in the market. We are seeing small businesses failing or choosing to exit the market. There's a lot of small business fatigue out there, and getting paid is part of that fatigue. We are definitely seeing that on a day by day and weekly basis. The market has changed, but it’s still buoyant. It's still a positive sort of situation to be in a small business in Tasmania. People are doing well, it's probably just people being a bit more conservative now and that means that a product like this will help them understand who they can sell to.
JOURNALIST: How important is that, being paid on time for small businesses? Are they juggling the books day to day? What does that actually look like?
WRAY: It's crucial. It's absolutely crucial. A lot of a small business’ payroll is weekly, a lot of their supplies is COD, and most COD suppliers are big business - so they command the payment terms, and a small business seems to be an acceptor of payment terms, and if you want my product or my stock, you have to pay upfront. A lot of small business’ pay weekly, pay the payroll weekly, so they're sort of a bit of a taker in that place in the marketplace, so something like this will really help to make that assessment as to whether or not they want to supply a big business.
JOURNALIST: And you touched on it a little bit, but do you think that small businesses, they're often at the hands of the big ones, and potentially this is one way to maybe flip it and give them a bit more backing, I guess?
WRAY: I think so, yes. Yeah, I think so. As I said earlier, often small business is a taker of payment terms - if you want do business with us, then these are our terms, if you don't, then we'll go elsewhere. Unfortunately, small business don't really have a lot of choice in that market and on the flipside, small business can't really command upfront payment because big business will go elsewhere and choose another small business who will take the longer payment terms.
JOURNALIST: What kind of businesses are you dealing with?
WRAY: All sorts. All ministries. We're general practitioners right through Tasmania and Australia - in fact, we have customers all around Australia. So, any types of businesses; services, goods, retail, transport, mining, manufacturing, building, you name it. We've got all sorts of customers in this organisation, because we are general practitioners and we sort of deal with small to medium sized businesses on a daily basis, and they are our customers.
JOURNALIST: I know it's early days of the reforms, but what sort of an impact do you think you'll see in businesses? Do you think they might see some growth and that sort of thing, in terms of being paid on time and that sort of thing, or is it too early to say?
WRAY: I'd say it's too early to say, but I hope so, I definitely hope so. Yeah, I definitely hope that this does make a difference to payment terms. Certainly, the naming and shaming will make a difference, I would hope. I'm hopeful.
JOURNALIST: Thank you.
COLLINS: Are there questions for me?
JOURNALIST: Yes. Have you had time to digest the State Budget. If so, how are you feeling about it?
COLLINS: Look, I think many Tasmanians will be concerned about the level of debt that Tasmanians are under. If you have a look at it, we're going to end up being around $15,000 for every man, woman, child and baby in Tasmania in debt in a few years' time, and I think Tasmanians are concerned about it.
JOURNALIST: Should the State Government have considered measures put forward by Saul Eslake to save money, rather than pursue deficiencies in Government departments?
COLLINS: Look, what we've done federally, as a federal Labor Government, is we've turned two Liberal deficits into two Labor surpluses. I'll leave the Tasmanian State Government to manage their budget, but what I would say is, as a Federal Government, we're investing here in Tasmania in record amounts. We're also providing cost of living relief for Tasmanians who need it most. Every Tasmanian taxpayer got a tax cut on 1 July. Every Tasmanian household is getting a $300 energy bill rebate. We've got cheaper medicines, we've tripled the bulk billing incentive in regional and rural areas, and that has had a big impact here in Tasmania. We've of course got our four Urgent Care Clinics up and running and another one on the way. We are investing and trying to support Tasmanians who need it most.
JOURNALIST: Do you think the budget will mean business investors turn away from Tasmania?
COLLINS: Look, I certainly, as a federal Member and a federal Minister, want to continue to work for the Tasmanian State Government in the best interests of Tasmanians. What I want to see is the Tasmanian economy thrive, but I think Tasmanians will be concerned about the level of debt.
JOURNALIST: The Treasurer was talking up in investment in GP services, saying we might be the only state who's stepping into that space. That's meant to be a federal matter. Do you think that shows that the federal government isn't doing enough to support general practice in Tasmania?
COLLINS: Obviously, when we came to government as a federal government, we were dealing with 10 years of cuts and neglect to Medicare. We have moved, and invested record amounts to strengthen Medicare - you've seen that with our investments in bulk billing. That is having real results, particularly here in Tasmania. In some parts of Tasmania, we've had an increase of bulk billing of around 9 per cent. Indeed, there's been 60,000 bulk billed Medicare visits since we made that change. We know there's more to do to strengthen Medicare, but we are investing record amounts and we're working with state governments - not just the Tasmanian state government - right across the country with how to improve healthcare.
JOURNALIST: So the Government's saying they've had to step in. Do you think that's fair considering what the federal government's done?
COLLINS: Well, the federal government is investing record levels here in Tasmania. We're investing, as I said, in the Urgent Care Clinics. We've invested in terms of the bulk billing incentive. We are working and we want to continue to work with Governments - state governments, and indeed local governments right across the country - to improve healthcare for Tasmanians and Australians.
JOURNALIST: Have you seen any other state or territory step in to provide GPs and that sort of thing, like the state government has just done?
COLLINS: There's certainly been discussions with other tiers of government and support for other tiers of government to improve health services across the country.
JOURNALIST: The state government again has pushed for an exemption for GST funding in regards to Macquarie Point, the $240 million contribution from the federal government. Is there any chance of that happening, or has that ship sort of sailed at this point?
COLLINS: Well, we've been very clear about our investments in infrastructure in Tasmania. Regardless of the investment of infrastructure, they're treated the same way as investments in infrastructure are in every other state and territory. What we want to do is make sure that Tasmania always gets its fair share. What Tasmanians know is that they always do better under federal Labor governments. Tasmanians also know the vast majority of the Tasmanian state government, between sort of 65 to 70 per cent, has always come from the federal government. It always has. I hope it doesn't always in the future. I want to see Tasmanians, you know, be able to contribute more to our state budget, but it is significantly funded by the federal government, and it always has been.
JOURNALIST: So there's definitely no exemption, you know, change to that position?
COLLINS: Well, Tasmania is a net beneficiary of GST. We get more than our fair share of GST. I wouldn't want to go tinkering with anything that means Tasmania's at a disadvantage.
JOURNALIST: There were a lot of projects as well that were listed, but they were done in an 80 20 split with the Australian government. I'm not sure what conversations of that have actually looked like, that they've committed to.
COLLINS: Well, what we saw out of the last federal budget was an investment of more money into infrastructure in Tasmania, not less, from the federal Labor government. We continue to have discussions and negotiations with the state government over projects. I know in my own electorate the Mornington Roundabout, for instance, is 80 federal government funding, 20 state government funding. That certainly has been the case on a lot of projects here in Tasmania - the federal government significantly investing in projects right across the state.
JOURNALIST: Just on a different note, there's a question of the agricultural chemical Paraquat, I don't know if you've seen.
COLLINS: Paraquat, yeah.
JOURNALIST: Yeah, an ABC story that's raised some concerns, and Parkinsons Australia has also called for a ban. Is the federal government investigating the chemical as such, or will it consider a ban?
COLLINS: Well, the APVMA, which looks at the veterinary and pesticides that are used in Australia is an independent body. We have been restoring integrity to the APVMA. It has an independent chair and board, as well as staff who have the scientific expertise. They are the ones making the decision. This is not a decision for me as the federal Agriculture Minister, or a decision for government. It is a decision for the independent APVMA, based on the science.
JOURNALIST: Does the government contribute in any way in terms of providing science or any advice to that process?
COLLINS: Well, they've gone out for consultation. The APVMA is currently consulting on a range of chemicals. What we have done as a government is we've asked the APVMA to look at and review some chemicals. I mean we were astounded when we came to office that some chemicals had not been reviewed for 17 years in terms of their public and environmental health impacts, so we have asked them to review a whole range of them. They are currently out for consultation on some of these products, and I'll let the APVMA do its independent work independently.
JOURNALIST: Is there a timeframe around that review?
COLLINS: My understanding is that the consultation is out there at the moment and decisions will be made early next year.
JOURNALIST: Sure. And just lastly as well, the Senate motion that passed in relation to the EU import rules around deforestation, does the government have a position on that?
COLLINS: I'm not sure which one you're referring to, but if you're talking about the new EU rules around products and the deforestation accreditation around that, we have written to the EU with our concerns about how that might be applied. We want to make sure that Australian agriculture products are not impeded in terms of the great products that we have. We have strong environmental laws in Australia, we have great public health and food safety laws, and of course we have terrific biosecurity, so I do not want to see any Australian products impeded because of that.