Interview with David Speers, ABC Insiders

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TELEVISION INTERVIEW
ABC INSIDERS
SUNDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER 2023

SUBJECTS: Disaster preparedness; National Disaster Preparedness Summit; aerial firefighting; COVID-19 inquiry, trade with China.

DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Murray Watt, welcome to the program.

MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT: G'day, David. Good to be with you.

DAVID SPEERS: So we saw your New South Wales counterpart there expressing some concern that we're not where we need to be with hazard reduction burns. Do you share that concern?

MURRAY WATT: Look I can completely understand Kristy McBain reflecting the concerns of her local community. Her electorate was one of the most worst affected through the Black Summer bushfires. And I don't think it's any surprise that there's a high level of anxiety in communities like that as we head into another bushfire season. But what I can assure your viewers is that Australia is much better prepared for this coming season than we were heading into Black Summer. We have implemented almost all of the recommendations of the Bushfire Royal Commission that were made to the Federal Government and they include establishing one coordinated National Emergency Management Agency, rather than two separate organisations under two separate Ministers which existed before. We will actually have more aircraft available for firefighting than we've ever had in this country, including one extra large water bombing aircraft and plenty more helicopters than we've had before. And I know that the states have done everything they can when it comes to hazard reduction, given the incredibly wet circumstances that we've been in over the last couple of years. I remember it was only a couple of months ago, I was in rural Victoria meeting with volunteer firefighters and they were telling me how difficult it had been to undertake hazard reduction because whenever they went out there, their shoes and boots were literally sinking in the mud. So it has been challenging to be ready on that front. But I know that the New South Wales Government has been throwing extra resources at this over the last couple of months to catch up and be as ready as possible. And I read this morning, in fact, that New South Wales is preparing to do more hazard reduction burns even this weekend, now that those temperatures have come down and it's more safe to do so.

DAVID SPEERS: But Kristy McBain doesn't seem to share that view that they've done all they can at the state level with hazard reduction. I mean, her comments during the week were that there's frustration land management is still not a priority and there hasn't been enough investment by the states in the paid workforce to do this job.

MURRAY WATT: Well obviously, when it comes to hazard reduction, that is something that is the responsibility of states and territories, but I do know that-

DAVID SPEERS: Have they done enough?

MURRAY WATT: I think different states have done more than others -

DAVID SPEERS: Which ones?

MURRAY WATT: My understanding is that Queensland, for instance, has actually well, my understanding is that Queensland has reached its targets for fuel reduction heading into this summer. But states like New South Wales and Victoria, where we have had incredibly heavy flooding over the last year or so, it has been more difficult. I think if you look at Kristy's comments, what she was more reflecting on is the activity that didn't take place under the former New South Wales Government. And she made the point that she's not just talking about the last few months, but one other thing that's going to be different heading into this bushfire season is that you're seeing a lot more cooperation between federal, state and territory governments. And we're not going to be engaging in what we saw under the former Government of finger pointing and blame shifting. We're working very cooperatively and that's how we get the country prepared.

DAVID SPEERS: Right, to that end, this Summit, you're going to be taking part in it over the next couple of days in Canberra. Just tell us a bit about this National Bushfire Summit. What are you hoping to achieve?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, well, this, David, is the next step in the Albanese Government's plan to make sure that we're much better prepared for disasters than we ever have been in the past. It's something we've been working on very hard since coming to office and this is the next step. So over the next two days in Canberra, we're bringing together about 200-300 leaders from the fire authorities from all of the state and territory jurisdictions, in addition to our own people. But importantly, we're also inviting leaders from the community sector and the private sector to really bring them into the picture as well about what sort of situation we're facing this year to make sure that the entire community is prepared. Obviously, when we face bushfires or any other form of natural disaster, it's our fire authorities or our disaster authorities who are on the front line. But the community sector play an incredibly important role in recovery - providing relief to people, and also the private sector need to get involved when you have supply chains interrupted and things like that, that we've seen in the past. So there's been a huge amount of work over the last few months between federal, state and territory authorities to be ready. But what's different about this is for the first time, we're also bringing together people from outside government so that we'll all have a shared understanding of what we're facing. And the Prime Minister will be speaking at it. I'll be speaking at it. The second day will include a literal scenario test, outlining a possible situation that might occur this year to put everyone through their paces. And we'd rather find any gaps that might exist in the system before we get to this summer, rather than learn about them when they're actually happening.

DAVID SPEERS: You mentioned the aerial firefighting resources we've got more than ever, I think you said. One of the recommendations of the Royal Commission, though, was for an Australian based and registered aerial firefighting capability. Where are we up to with having that sovereign capability or are we still having to hire these things?

MURRAY WATT: Well I think what I've found is that when you speak to different people in the fire community, different people have different interpretations of what a sovereign aerial firefighting capability means. Some would argue that we already have that because already about 95 per cent of the aerial fleet that we use, whether it be those big air tankers helicopters or smaller planes, about 95 per cent of them are actually based in Australia all year round anyway. As I say, we now have one more large water bombing plane than we had back in Black Summer. A couple of the States have also taken on their own as well. But I think the reality is that as we do face longer fire seasons, both here in Australia and overseas, we do need to be thinking about whether we'll have access to the planes and other aircraft that we need in the future. But what I can tell you is that all of the state authorities have assured us that the capacity that they have online for this year is going to be enough to deal with this year. As I say, we will have about 500 aircraft overall nationally available for this fire season, which is more than Australia has ever had before. And at the federal level, we've actually doubled the funding for aerial firefighting compared to what existed at the federal level back in Black Summer. So, as you said in the introduction, David, no one can guarantee that we won't be facing risk. There will always be risk in a country like Australia, but we're certainly doing everything we possibly can to be prepared.

DAVID SPEERS: I want to ask you about this reliance on Defence. We know the Defence Strategic Review is concerned it's unsustainable the way we keep using defence as much as we do in natural disasters. In opposition, just before the election, you were sharply critical of the lack of defence resources during those floods in northern NSW. What's your view now? What's the answer to getting this balance right?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah well, I think what we need to do is, as the Defence Strategic Review identified, recognise that the Defence Force are under immense pressure themselves. We do live in a more uncertain strategic world than we have in the past and it's important that the ADF can be focused on their core mission, which is the defence of the nation. And the reality is that every time we do call on the Defence Forces to assist in a disaster situation, that is taking them away from their training and their preparedness for their core duty. But I want to be clear with people that the Albanese Government will always make the Defence Forces available when they're needed. But what we need to do is recognise that they should be used as a last resort rather than a first port of call. I think in a situation like we faced in Lismore and the Northern Rivers of New South Wales, there is no doubt that you would need the ADF deployed for that kind of thing. And in the recent floods in the Kimberley, we were bringing people across from Townsville, aircraft from Townsville, and I know they found that essential, but it's about getting the balance right and making sure that we are not overly relying on them. And that's why, for example, we're investing in a group called Disaster Relief Australia. We're providing them $38 million over the next few years. They're a veteran based volunteer organisation that I've seen in the field doing fantastic work to help with cleanup, help with recovery. So we need to be finding other solutions rather than only turning to the ADF.

DAVID SPEERS: Just on those other solutions, using veterans as volunteers, no doubt is one of them. But I know the Home Affairs Department has a discussion paper on this, trying to get a bit of creative thinking. You've also suggested in the past ideas around maybe a semi-professional firefighting service. What's your current thinking, Murray Watt, on how we deal with the fact that we can't rely on Defence as much as we have, climate change means we're going to have more and more intense events like this. There are fewer volunteers with all the SES and Bushfire brigades and so on. So what do we need to be thinking about here?

MURRAY WATT: Well, as you've outlined, David, it's a very challenging environment that we are facing in coming years because of all of those factors coming together. As you've said, the Department of Home Affairs is currently undertaking a big piece of policy work to really establish what we will need at the federal level in the future to be able to respond to disasters in a personnel sense and an equipment sense, that work will carry into the new year. And I don't want to pre-empt those recommendations, but as I say, we're taking short term steps in the meantime by investing in those kind of groups like Disaster Relief Australia. But it is possible that in the future we're going to need to be turning to sort of semi-professional firefighting services, which is what they have in places like California, where people can come online and be paid for their services for longer periods of the year, sort of just for the fire season rather than an entire year. There are all those sort of options that are under consideration at the moment.

DAVID SPEERS: What about would we ever get to the point where we have to look at some sort of National Community Service where people up to a certain age, perhaps have to do a certain number of hours, be it with the SES or the Rural Fire Service, to ensure that the boots are there on the ground?

MURRAY WATT: Again, that sort of option is under consideration through this review process that we've got underway at the moment. And that sort of thing I know has been suggested to people. I think that there probably are young people out there who'd be more interested in providing that kind of community service than they might be for enlisting in the Army Reserves or things like that. I think we should be thinking about all options about how we meet our future needs.

DAVID SPEERS: So you're open to that, requiring young people to do that sort of service?

MURRAY WATT: Well, again, I wouldn't want to commit to sort of obliging people or forcing them to do so. It might be possible to do it in a voluntary manner. Such is what we have with the Army Reserve at the moment. We don't force people to join the Army Reserve, but there's a lot of people who want to choose that option and similarly, there might be people open to this as well. I think there's a range of different options that we need to consider. It might also be about supporting the States and Territories with building up their numbers of volunteers, because I think we do need to be cautious about having the Federal Government overstep its area of responsibility. This is an area that is primarily led by States and Territories. We don't want to duplicate services that they have in place. But the fact is we are facing a difficult, changing climate and we need to be ready and we need to think differently.

DAVID SPEERS: What about the personnel? You mentioned that a lot of them suffered a lot of mental health PTSD after the Black Summer fires. Maybe that's one of the reasons why volunteer numbers are down. Federal Government does fund some of the mental health supports here. I was talking to Fortem the other day, one of the groups that tries to help prevent worse problems happening with mental health amongst volunteers. They have to scramble each year for funding, though. Shouldn't this be a core part of bushfire readiness, looking after the mental wellbeing of those volunteers?

MURRAY WATT: There's no doubt that we need to be supporting the mental health needs of our volunteers and our paid personnel. They go through some incredibly traumatic situations and I've spoken to many of them in the field about what they've gone through and that is why we are providing funding to organisations like Fortem, the Black Dog Institute, Phoenix, a number of others as well. Just recently, the Assistant Mental Health Minister, Emma McBride and I released a new framework - mental health framework - for how we support our volunteers. So these are, again, are all ideas that we have under consideration and we're acting on at the moment.

DAVID SPEERS: A couple of other things, Minister. Clearly the Royal Commission into Natural Disasters, into the bushfires, was a worthwhile exercise. All of the states signed letters patent to be a part of it. Why isn't there going to be a Royal Commission into the COVID Pandemic?

MURRAY WATT: Well, for starters, there was never a commitment made to have a Royal Commission. The commitment made was to have an independent inquiry and that's what we've established. And really what the government is about is about trying to understand the lessons from the past, rather than trying to engage in political point scoring. I mean, typically, Royal Commissions have been used for areas where you've had maladministration, potential corruption, potential criminal referrals, such as the Robodebt Royal Commission. That's happened recently-

DAVID SPEERS: Not with the Bushfire Royal Commission. That was about trying to look at a crisis and work out how to better handle the next one.

MURRAY WATT: Yeah but I think the issue is that because we did have every state operating differently through COVID, David, I think it would be just impractical to be able to have a Royal Commission that looks into every decision of every state government-

DAVID SPEERS: Why?

MURRAY WATT: You'd really end up needing to have eight separate- well, you'd have to have eight separate Royal Commissions to look into the activities of eight separate jurisdictions. I mean, I'm talking to you from Coolangatta just near the NSW-Queensland border. New South Wales and Queensland operated differently on different ways, whether it be about border closures, school closures. We'd have a long running inquiry that would never end if it was looking into every single -

DAVID SPEERS: So can you just clear that up for us? So this inquiry won't look at school closures?

MURRAY WATT: Well, what Mark Butler said last week was that one of the terms of reference for the inquiry is the public health responses that were undertaken. We've also said that the different responsibilities of the Federal Government and the states will be within scope-

DAVID SPEERS: But what does that mean? Will it look at school closures? Just back to the question. Will it look at school closures?

MURRAY WATT: Well, obviously, that will ultimately be a matter for the inquiry, and it's headed by three independent experts who are capable of making that decision -

DAVID SPEERS: So they can look at it or they're not allowed to look at it?

MURRAY WATT: Well, what I was going to say is that we're quite comfortable for them to look at things like the systems that were employed to make decisions around school closures, border closures but I think we-

DAVID SPEERS: So why does the terms of reference these unilateral decisions of the states, are not in scope.

MURRAY WATT: Well, what I'm saying is that I think it's- remember, this is primarily an inquiry into the Commonwealth's role and the Commonwealth handling it's a Commonwealth inquiry. So it makes sense that primarily it's going to be the actions of the Commonwealth that are in focus. But we have also said that the responsibilities of States can be taken into account. And I think it would be perfectly fine for the inquiry to consider the systems that states had in place for deciding things like border closures, school closures. But if we get to a point where the inquiry is looking into every decision that every state was made, this inquiry will never end. And what we want to do is have a good set of recommendations about how we can learn from the past, not engage in political point scoring, whether it be about the former Federal Government or Liberal and Labor State Governments, but actually have practical recommendations that set us up for the future.

DAVID SPEERS: Just a final one. In your capacity as Agriculture Minister overnight, China's Commerce Ministry has suggested a so-called package deal to drop the tariffs on Australian wine if we drop some of our anti dumping approach on Chinese wind towers, railway wheels, and stainless steel sinks. What's the Australian Government's view on that package deal?

MURRAY WATT: Well we see these as entirely separate matters, David. Obviously, as a result of the great work of the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, the Trade Minister and others, we've been able to stabilise our relationship with China, and that is paying dividends for our farmers in areas like barley, horticulture, cotton and others. But wine remains an issue that we want to see resolved. And we've said all along to China that we'd like to see it resolved in the same way the barley dispute was resolved - through dialogue. But we will continue our case before the WTO about China's anti-dumping tariffs when it comes to wine. That trade was worth about a billion dollars to Australia before those tariffs were imposed. It's down to about $16 billion-

DAVID SPEERS: So that's no to the package deal is it?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, no, we see them as entirely separate matters. We will continue our WTO case when it comes to wine, and we will continue to defend the case when it comes to steel. But we hope that all of these things can be resolved by dialogue.

DAVID SPEERS: Murray Watt, appreciate your time this morning, thank you.